Silence Is Consent: An Interview with Rick Spisak

Alma Lewtom: This is awesome, thank you so much. Thank you.

Rick Spisak: Nice to see you again.

Alma Lewtom: Thank you, it’s nice to see you too. It’s been years, hasn’t it?

Rick Spisak: It has, it has.

Alma Lewtom: How are you? How are things in America?

Rick Spisak: I’m good, I’m good. I had a health challenge for a bit. I had… cancer was detected between my sinuses and my brain. And they said it couldn’t be surgically removed. So they said we’ll try with chemo, but there’s no promises. And thank goodness it worked.

But the downside, right after I was done with all the chemo and they said the cancer was gone, so that was good. Unfortunately, the side effects of the chemo ended up weakening my spine and I got a broken back. I got five fractured vertebrae. So I’ve spent the last year learning how to walk again.

Alma Lewtom: I’m so sorry about it, but I’m really happy that you overcame this challenge. And I’m really sorry to hear about it. I can only imagine. It’s really tough. I’ve had my fair share of health scares.

I don’t know if you know it, but I almost died. Also with the sinuses issue. So I know how difficult it can be, but thank goodness we’re still here and we’re having this conversation.

Rick Spisak: Exactly.

Alma Lewtom: And you know, at the end of such a challenge, I feel like I have more wisdom and I appreciate life even more.

Rick Spisak: Absolutely.

Alma Lewtom: I heard this saying once, “a blessing wrapped in sandpaper.”

Rick Spisak: What? That’s a colourful expression. Very nice.

Alma Lewtom: It hurts when you’re in it, but afterwards you find the blessing wrapped in sandpaper.

Rick Spisak: Absolutely. Over the course of my life, I’ve had several friends leave early, shall we say, who passed away when they were much younger.

So I had friends who passed away in their 20s and their 30s and their 40s and 50s. So here I am, I’m in my 70th year and I figure that I’m very fortunate that I still have my wits about me and that I can still contribute and try to do some good with my writing colleagues. I still am very active in politics and I write political cartoons.

You know my poetry has a political aspect to it. I believe that when we have a chance to work together across distances, across the planet, that is good for civilization.

Alma Lewtom: That’s true and I’m actually so grateful that you agreed to have this conversation. I think it will be a great conversation, a really meaningful conversation and I’m really looking forward to hearing your answers. So my first question is related to you as a writer. So we’ve never met in person. I’ve never been to America. I would really like to, one day.

Rick Spisak: Maybe one day. You’re always welcome. You’re always welcome here.

Alma Lewtom: Thank you. Well, for sure, if I’m ever going to come to America, I’m going to contact you. I’m going to be like, Rick, I’m coming.

Rick Spisak: Good. We will welcome you with open arms.

Alma Lewtom: We need to meet in person. Yeah, but we somehow found each other on the World Wide Web and we connected due to our shared passion for writing. I really don’t remember how it happened, but it happened and we somehow started this conversation and we’re here, years later.

Rick Spisak: Mircea Dan Duță—I think—introduced us first.

Alma Lewtom: That’s true. So poets, poets who introduce poets to each other. Yeah. Well, as an introduction, could you please tell us a few words about you as a writer, as a poet?

Rick Spisak: Well, OK. I knew from when I was just a small child that I wanted to be a writer, that I was a storyteller. Believe it or not, when I was eight years old, I got a tape recorder and I would walk around and interview people because I had a sense that everyone had a story, that everyone had learned something, had experienced something that we could all learn from. Later in my studies, I was very much a student of history, of anthropology, of culture and ultimately a student of religion.

I’ve read very widely in religion and many of the ancients teach that you should regard everyone you meet as your teacher. And I always thought there was a great amount of wisdom there.

So I started writing when I was a little kid. When I was in just elementary school, let’s say from five years old until 10 years old, I spent a lot of time in libraries. I love libraries. And I had a feeling that one day some of my writing might be significant enough to find a place in a library.

So I was always determined to write with two goals in mind all the time. And I knew this from when I was a kid. I wanted to write to encourage people to think about the problems of the world, how to make it better.

And at the same time, while I was hoping to get people to think, I encapsulated it as “think and laugh”. Because I think that laughter is such an important part of human life. There’s too much silliness. There’s too much foolishness. And if we just, if we only think sad about it, then we’re going to spend a lot of time being sad. But if we can laugh at human weakness, if we can laugh at human foibles, if we can laugh at human stupidity, because that’s what it is sometimes… I have another expression where I say sometimes people are very slow learners. You know, if you’re smart, if you think, then you can learn the lesson when it’s an easy problem to solve. But if you’re not paying attention or you’re ignoring a problem, it can get very, very bad very, very quick. And then it’s a real problem to solve.

So I try to write so that people think and laugh. And I try to always write with a little sense of humor, even though I write about a lot of very serious topics.

Alma Lewtom: I know exactly what you mean. I know exactly what you mean. Well, I decided to invite you for this interview when I saw the new anthology Silence is Consent. And when I saw the title, I was like, oh my goodness. I love the title. I haven’t read it yet. I haven’t bought it yet. But for sure, I would like to get my own copy. You know what I mean? I love the title.
I find it so true.

And as a writer, I’ve always felt it that, you know, silence really is consent. When we witness social injustice, when we witness grave issues such as human rights violations. As a writer, I feel I am obliged to speak up. Otherwise, I cannot leave the planet with a clean karma. You know what I mean?

Rick Spisak: I know exactly what you mean. Exactly what you mean. You know, and I know that a lot of people’s reaction to a problem is to hide their eyes or to be busy and forget about it. Try to do things that amuse them. But ultimately, problems have to be faced.

And I think the other responsibility that writers have, and this to me is very important. There’s an old expression, the unexamined life is not worth living. And what that means to me is you have to pay attention.

You have to speak up. And if you’re a thinking person, you’re a writer. Writers are often thinking people.

And if we see a problem and we have analyzed it and have come up with maybe not the perfect solution, but some path toward a solution, we owe it to our civilization to try to contribute, even if we’re wrong. But we should address the problem. Ignoring a problem is no solution.

And obviously, there’s plenty of foolishness around. Plenty of foolishness around.

Alma Lewtom: It’s true. It’s true. Well, how did your voice find its way into this book, into this anthology?

Rick Spisak: Well, let me explain. And I’ll try to say this very discreetly, very quickly.

I’ve been writing about social issues since I was a very young man. When I was in my teens, America was committing a horrible war in Vietnam. Most of the young men of my age were being called up.

And before I got to that, before it was my turn to be called up, I wrote about the racism of it. I wrote about the terrible waste of human life. I wrote about why do some people always want to kill others to solve a problem.

And the worst lie of the whole lot, and there’s just two tons of lies, was that we were there to help. We weren’t there to help.

We were there to help business. We were there to help the petroleum industry, and the arms industry, and the warrior industry. We weren’t there to help the Vietnamese. We were killing them by the thousands. And worse, poisoning their land.

So I started writing about that stuff way back then. I have opposed every war we’ve had, and I’ve been too busy doing that.

When I heard that there was a book being compiled of many different writers who had thoughts they wanted to share about the current leadership in America, or the current president anyway, because he’s not a leader of any kind, not good, I was invited to participate. So I contributed a handful of poems, thinking that maybe one or possibly two might be included, but they chose several of my poems and some of my cartoons too. So I was very honored.

The gentleman that put together the collection, Chris Bogart, a very fine man. He is very involved in trying to contribute constructively.

You know and I know that of the people that notice problems, more than half just want to complain. They’re happy simply complaining. That’s enough.

But some of us, people like you and me and many others, thank goodness, we try to help. We try to do something to improve the situation, if only to shine a light on it, because that’s important. So I’ve got my copy here.

Silence Is Consent. There it is.

Alma Lewtom: It’s so true. So true, such a good title.

Rick Spisak: Well, you know, there’s a story about how people wonder, how did tyrants like Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot or pick one or another, how does that happen? How does that occur? How do people make that kind of terrible mistake? And Trump. So some of us thought about that and we wrote about it.

And the idea here is to stimulate thinking, to help people come up with plans to try to deal with it, to try to improve the situation.

Now, you know, we’re not millionaires. We’re sometimes almost or barely hundredaires. But we know that with our brains and with our heart and by working together with other good people, we can make it better a little bit at a time. So that’s what this book is about.

And I’ve had the chance to talk to Chris many times, and it’s a book that I can really recommend because it’s got so much good thinking in it.

Alma Lewtom: I saw so many contributors, so many authors, and I don’t know many of the names, but I’m so curious, so curious. I really want to be honest: it would have been lovely to have read it before having this interview. I would have loved to. Time was short. I’m happy I’m here. I’m honest about it. I haven’t read it yet, but I really want to. Can you tell us a bit about the message of the poems?

Rick Spisak: What I can do for you is I can read a couple of poems from it. I’ll read mine and maybe one other’s so that you have a sense of it and your audience can understand a little bit of what we were doing.

Alma Lewtom: That’s awesome.

Rick Spisak: Hold on one second here and I’ll find the couple of these poems that I think you’ll find reach to that place. OK, let’s see here. We’re close. If you want to ask me the question while I’m looking, I can do that.

Alma Lewtom: Well, the next question is related to the message of your poems. What is the message of your poems in Silence Is Consent? And I think there is no other better way to answer this question than to actually read a poem.

Rick Spisak: OK, OK. One of the cartoons. Let me let me describe a cartoon that was included because I do a lot of political cartoons.

I was struck as a young child how a cartoon with so few lines and so few words can communicate so much. And I’ve always been impressed. I used to have a collection of old books from the late, late 1800s, early 1900s that had these wonderful, powerful cartoons about history, about leaders, about decisions and that sort of thing.

And it was just so amazing to me that they could do this. So I started doing my anti-war cartoons way back in the 1960s. So I’ve done cartoons in the 70s, in the 80s, in the 90s, in the 2000s. And I still do them today.

So here’s a poem. And this is about a dictator. Well, it’s about Trump, but it really it speaks to any dictator. And we know too many. So this is called:

Only one acceptable outcome (8)
@rwspisak

With only ” One acceptable outcome”
guess what, we’re not surprised, but precisely understood, because we’re not dumb.
They think they won the prize, of the victory over the myriad freedoms they despise.

We’re in this game for the long pull,
We’re not here, just to support one vain glorious fool.
Who might traipse across the Atlantic to accept international accolades so rich
and seemingly dynamic though actually stilted formal and quite archaic.

But with robes of state so ill fitting,
he will find compensation not so fulsome nor as befitting,
a presumptive allied leader,
with a need for headstrong noisesome theatre,
but he’ll be blustering on the international stage, he will seem so petty
not the sort of global stagecraft so much more befitting
a dunce not a sage. Who so typically smug or in a rage.

There’s no celebration or certainty at such mock militant jerkery.
The monumental ego, and cartoony militant stratego,
on parade so displayed by those he’s nominated for high office,
the kind of villainous offal, he’s tossed us,
strictly there because they’re weak, and will never bring,
fealty to the Constitution or any fragmentary illusion
of problem solving to our great and noble institutions.

But simply furtherance of the cult of trump,
and while sycophancy may enjoy smoothing the taste of rump,
such an ill fitting crowds as these,
of muggers, buggerers and thieves.
As they focus solely on their cause
so seeming wholey of any coins from coffers
they just arrive to steal cheat and rob.
That is If the Senate gives’m the job.

We’ll watch them, try to steal the silver,
and sell off great living chunks of liberties liver.
And all the while, betrayal and back biting amongst
these crimers, Will flourish with the rapidity
and more revolutions taking up their time’ll
More than a whirling dervish’s spinning confusions.

Except for drama and ego flaunting,
they will appear as little more than shades,
at liberties temples daunting.
They’re greedy and dumb and their needs are simple,
when they come, sneaking in simply to rob liberty’s temple.

Gratify their endless need for self importance.
And yet for those hearing liberties call,
we’ll need reinforcements, after all.

Pomp and circumstance and their vain-glorious puffery.
Give’m enough fools gold, so they can try to engorge their pockets
grabbing all that coinage the can claim, indulging in ample STUFFERY!

The work of freedom ner complete,
and unlikely to be trampled,
beneath those dirty scarberous and horny feet!

–

But, you know, I wanted to address not just particular political foolishness, but I wanted to address humanity more generally.

So I shared this poem. It’s called:
A Behaviorists Perspective
the Causes of Racism.

Because there’s too much racism still. And, you know, you would think that since the same kind of humans have been made for several thousands of years, that we’ve gotten used to the idea that sometimes humans are brown or black or yellow or red or pink or tan or pale.

This is what humans are. They’re all those things. And while this was written about a particular crime and about a particular failure to understand common humanity, I think it speaks to the larger problem.

A Behaviorists Perspective
the Causes of Racism
@rwspisak

The troop or group, the clan’s glad hand
the sign of nine the grip in the dark
the posted mark informs the stable state of norms.

remembering the frames of membrane games brain disguises,
shade your eyes, in apple pies it sizes the territory, turf.

The good should;
our side of town, our group is right,
in the sight of good god’s smile.
even sunlight reviles your kind,
outside the pure.
to lure with your kinds lazy stupid stunts
a sparrow of a different hue
could be torn and clove in two
by a few of another blue hunt

the strength, bounding bonding unicellular life
in multi-cellular strife
responding besiding
ties the atom so tight min-ute molecular might
and chooses in precise measure
who you’ll sleep with tonight.

beehives survive by tribes trance
the queens romance excludes the rude outsider
protects the provider
determines the rider of the queen’s desire

emboldened invaders
reduce the chance for the tribes to advance
social groups and bamboo shoots,
baboon troops and fishy schools
know who the foe is, when to go,
who’s the friend, where’s the end.

the rules used training fools by gene & team wish
that’s cultures dish
it keeps the Portuguese man o’war
banging on the door
it explains to the colony
who to hang onto and why

cultural clash
like red ants and black
as a reason to attack
is a common step
to keep em hep to good guys and bad,

but isn’t it sad how often the supportive social ties
the tools of molecular rules
can conceal the lack and leak of the social contract
to the greater stack
the organs of your hand

would be foolish to war
or inflict harm on the arm.
could the leg force the knee to submit or flee
could the brow to the forehead say drop dead
begone ! Amscray !

and then in confusion sway against the neighbors arrayed.
as this is, to make a fist to relate, the cultural trait
a boundary in this or any country
take humpty dumpty,
he’s really something
to relate to the ground
with a loud cracking sound
unicellular or multi-cellular in clothing and in motion
your expressing
the notion of your tribe
it doesn’t hide wouldn’t try
but membranes even say;
“if you lean over easy this way together, is stronger lives happier longer”
cultural riffs needn’t cause tiffs
or express fists in pain
what it is when they mean the supportive us
they needn’t bleed trust
or force us to muss
the membranes edgey thrust
but if you say it must
symbiosis is being
osmosis it’s meaning
surely you know this
there’s no relief in grief
let tribal libel
cease extend the grace of space
the use of social bonding to unite is great
but even edges meet
and act to attract
the surging urge to merge –

a behaviorists perspective the causes of racism

Alma Lewtom: So beautiful. So beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Rick. Thank you. Very well said.

Rick Spisak: It was about one particular incident, but it seemed to me that it speaks to the fact that it’s normal for us to recognize tribes, that there’s an in-group and an out-group that’s normal. It’s mammal and it’s even beyond mammals, insects, fish, they know their groups. That’s true, but it doesn’t mean the troops have to be at war, that different groups can work together. And that’s what I was hoping to point out.

Alma Lewtom: I feel like war has terrible consequences. And I’ve written 12 poems about Peace. I numbered them from 0 to 11. So it’s like, Peace (0) to Peace (11). And I will always be a Promoter of Peace for sure.

War has terrible consequences, terrible karmic consequences. It’s not a solution, in any way. And I feel it really is time for humanity to evolve and find better ways to solve conflict, because war is definitely not a solution. It scars generations.

Rick Spisak: And so many of the innocent die.

Alma Lewtom: Yeah, unfortunately.

Rick Spisak: If it was just the people that wanted war, if they were the only ones being killed, maybe you could make an argument for it. But the innocent people die, the children, the women, the kids.

Alma Lewtom: Yeah. And if they survive, they might lose everything. So it’s a really sad topic for me. And well, I really pray daily for world peace. And I really hope that humanity will find better ways to address issues.

Well, my next question is also related to politics. I will bring a little bit of context. I was born and raised in Romania. And ever since I can remember, since early, early childhood, I loved books, and I dreamed of writing my own books. So I also knew I was a writer, just like you, since I was a child. And growing up, it was very difficult for me to discover the history of my people. I’m pretty sure you’ve read 1984?

Rick Spisak: Oh, yeah.

Alma Lewtom: So, 1984, though fiction, it really describes very well the circumstances and inner struggles of the people living during those times.

And just to give you a little bit of personal background to it, I was driving, my father was driving to Bucharest when I was quite young, in my 20s. And I had this book with me. And sometimes I shared some quotes from it with my father. So, my father lived during those times. I was born 3 years after the Revolution. That’s how we speak, before the Revolution and after the Revolution. And I asked my father,

“Well, Dad, how was it when you were young?”

And my father replied, “Well, kind of like in your book.”

So, yeah, 1984.

And in my early adolescence, I somehow managed to discover some archives. Don’t ask me how I did it, I don’t remember, but I did it. And I discovered terrible stories about the systematic eradication of intellectuals.

And I got blocked. Seriously, I couldn’t write in Romanian anymore. It was just like block, block, block, block, block. And, you know, as a writer, we have to write. Writers have to write.
So I started writing in English. And I created this heteronym, Alma Lewtom. It was the only way I felt safe enough to write.

And it’s only now, when I’m 33 years old, and it’s also due to some situations where silence is consent, that I started writing in Romanian, but really writing from my heart, you know, really writing as I’m writing. It’s only now, at 33 years old.

And I still feel fear sometimes. I don’t publish everything I write. I write it, but I don’t publish everything I write.

And sometimes I’m afraid. I feel fear. But I do it anyway, in spite of my fear, because silence is consent, right? So the question is, for you, what would you say? How do you find the courage to tell the truth when necessary?

Rick Spisak: Well, it’s never easy. And when you speak out against the popular wisdom, you realize that you’re taking a chance.

And you weigh, in your own mind and heart, is telling the truth worth it? Or is silence an adequate answer? And I can tell you that for me, I have many, many times decided that I could not be silent. When I was drafted, when I was selected to go and kill people in Vietnam, I had a dear friend say to me,

“Rick, you’re an artist. You’re a writer. Let me give you money. Go to Canada. Hide out. Your writing is so beautiful. You’re thoughtful. Your mind shouldn’t do that.”

And, you know, as a poet, you know, the idea of being a romantic escapee from tyranny, it has its allure.

But I meditated on it. I thought about it long and hard. And I decided that I would take a course, that I chose to go ahead and enter the army, but with the goal of telling the truth. And I decided that I was going to speak truth to power.

I was going to tell them that war was evil, that they were bringing very bad karma on themselves, and that this war was racial, that this war was about money, had nothing to do with freeing the people in Vietnam, and that I would refuse to kill people, even though it’s my country.

I balanced it out this way. I said, look, as a citizen, I owe you my body. Okay, I get that. You require me to give my body. Okay, you can have my body. You do not get my mind. You do not get my behavior. You do not get my support.

Alma Lewtom: I’m a free sovereign being!

Rick Spisak: And I think you know a little bit about meditation, right?

Alma Lewtom: Yes.

Rick Spisak: So the very first day that I was there, they went to great lengths to terrorize these young men. This is good psychological warfare theory. If they scare them, then they turn to the army for support, for safety, right? So they’re trying to terrorize these young men, and they were literally nervous wrecks.
So what I did for my own safety and sanity was I sat down and started to chant OM. When I opened my eyes 15 minutes later, I had a group of people sitting around me watching me, and some of them had joined in.

Alma Lewtom: That’s awesome!

Rick Spisak: By the end of that first night, 30 people were joining me to chant OM because they tried it, and it calmed them down.

And within four days, the entire group of 60 people in our barracks sat down with me and chanted OM with me.

Alma Lewtom: That’s so awesome!

Rick Spisak: It calmed themselves down.

Now, I got called in to the military police, and they said, we want to know what you’re up to. We think, and they actually said these words to me, they said,

“You are a danger to the army.”

Alma Lewtom: Oh my goodness. Well, how did you make it out alive?

Rick Spisak: Well, that had to be karma because the logic, there was no logic in my position, none.

And they said, “You can have an attorney. You don’t have to talk to us, but we would like to ask you questions.”

So I said, “Ask. I’m a Teacher. I will tell you whatever you need to know.”

So they asked me all these questions, and I’m saying, I’m talking about karma. I’m talking about auras, and I’m explaining them the energy, because they do chanting, but they do terrible chanting. They do murder chants. They do rape chants.

This is what, to program these young men to do what they want them to do, to kill people, to make killing acceptable.

So I’m telling them this truth, right? And they’re looking at me like I’m absolutely crazy, right? And they said, “Are you on drugs?”

I said, “Yes. Yes, I’m on oxygen and nitrogen. It’s amazing.”

They go, “Where do you get oxygen and nitrogen?”

I go, “Oh, it’s everywhere. Anybody can get it.”

And obviously, they didn’t know any chemistry at all. And they said, “We’re going to take you to see a military psychologist because we think you’re crazy, and we think you’re a danger to the Army.”

I’m thinking, “Me? I’m a danger to the Army?”

So, on the way to the psychiatrist, because they want to evaluate me, they think I’m dangerous, right? So I’m chanting OM in the car on the way, this guy’s driving me, and he’s sitting over on the side of his chair so that whatever I’m doing doesn’t hit him or doesn’t infect him.

So while I’m meditating, I got a clear picture in my head, because I get pictures in my head, that it would work out, that somehow, some way, it would work out.

Now, you know, there’s different kinds of divination. There’s cards, and there’s astrology, and there’s a Chinese method called I Ching.

Alma Lewtom: I Ching, yes.

Rick Spisak: Well, I was studying I Ching at that point in time. So in my journals, I had all 64 hexagrams, and I knew what they meant.

I walk into the psychiatric office. When the psychiatrist comes in, he’s got this folder with all these pages of my testimony, and he’s flipping through it, and I notice on his desk is a mug, a coffee mug. You know what was on that mug? A hexagram of I Ching, of Sun over Sun, that the sun from above will shine on the earth, and everything is going to work out. You’ll cross the great stream. The tiger will not find its tooth. The spear will not find its point. Everything’s going to be okay. You’re going to cross the great stream.

So as he’s flipping through this, he looks at me, and he says, “Richard, I think you have better things to do than kill people.”

And I said, “Sir, I think you’re absolutely right. ”

He said, “Now here’s the problem. Unless I say you’re insane, unless I say you are unfit mentally to kill people, they’re going to insist on keeping you in the officer’s headquarters, which means they’re going to kill you.”

Alma Lewtom: Oh, my goodness.

Rick Spisak: “The only option I have is I have to put you in a mental hospital”, he said. “But I think after about two weeks, I can have you released from the army as mentally unfit to kill people, and you’ll get an honorable medical discharge.”

And I pointed out the window at the army base, soldiers marching up and down, and the tanks and the guns and all that. And I said, “Sir, if that’s sanity, book my room.”

Alma Lewtom: What a Story, Rick. What a Story.

Rick Spisak: So I spent two weeks in a psychiatric hospital because I was unfit to kill and murder.

Alma Lewtom: I’m also definitely unfit, for sure. That’s why we’re here talking, right? What a Story. Thank you so much for sharing it with me. I feel really honored.

Rick Spisak: So that took a considerable amount of faith and trust in the goodness of the universe.

Alma Lewtom: Yeah. But you were there and you lit up the place, right? You lit up the place. You were there. You chanted. You delivered the message, you know. And you got out safe. And I’m really happy about it because… well, I don’t even know what else to say.

Rick Spisak: Well, go ahead and go back to your questions.

Alma Lewtom: Okay. Well, yes, let’s go to the next question I’ve prepared. And this one is related to our responsibility. I feel that as artists, we have a great responsibility to society and humanity, and that our art is truly powerful. What can you tell us about this topic? I know we’ve touched it a little bit, but maybe we can go deeper.

Rick Spisak: It’s a very good question. And, you know, there are different reasons why people are artists. Hopefully, the best reasons are because they want to share something that’s in their heart. They are struck by the beauty and sometimes by the horror of the world, and they want to share their particular personal experience of it.

Now, I think, because I believe in service to my fellow humanity, I believe that those of us who pay attention to the world, those of us who are observers, those of us who are artists in this world, we have this gift to share. We have this gift because the universe has designed you and has designed me to take our snapshots, to have our experiences, and then pass them on, so that someone can learn.

When we look at ancient literature, you know, look at the oldest stories that we can find, right? Gods and Goddesses and fables and epic tales. You know, I think of, for example, there’s many, but I think of the Iliad and the Odyssey, the tales of the battles of the Greeks and the Trojans, or the battles of the Greeks and the Persians, or the great adventures of Marco Polo, or Lao Tzu, or Confucius, or the Buddha, or the Native American stories, or European stories. These stories illustrate what it was like to be in that moment.

What dilemmas did they face? What challenges? What did they learn from that challenge? What did they learn?

My mind turns to the Trojan horse because the gentleman who’s the president, and I use the term “gentleman” loosely in this case, he was just given a Trojan horse. He was given a jet plane.

But the important thing is that poets, poets especially, are the oldest stories we know. Those are the most ancient stories.

So, when people say to me, “Poetry, it’s unimportant, it’s inconsequential,” I start telling them all the reasons why it’s so vital, it’s so powerful, and lives longer than monuments.

Alma Lewtom: It is. You know, actually, my journey with poetry was quite unexpected. I’ve always, since I was a child, I’ve always wanted to write a fantasy book for children. And I’ve only started working on it now. It’s my fourth. And my first published book was poetry. And I never would have thought about it, you know? Never.

But that’s how it just, it came, it came. And I was surprised myself. I was like, am I a poet? My first book is poetry? How come?

But there is such power in poetry. There is such magic in poetry. When you fall in love with it, you cannot unfall in love with poetry. Definitely.

Rick Spisak: Absolutely. I have, I grew up in a culture that regarded poetry as the poor stepsister of real writing, you know? And my response to that sort of thinking is this:

Okay, do songs have poetry? Yes.
When you’re in a sports game, do they use poetry in their chants? Yes.
When they want to sell you something in a commercial, is there poetry there? Yes.

Okay, so if they do this on the battlefield, and they do this in commercials, and they do this in the songs, and they do this at the sports things, tell me again about how poetry is irrelevant and completely pointless.

Tell me about it. Tell me how it’s worthless. Because I will say the oldest stories humanity has are from the poets of the past.

Alma Lewtom: That’s true.

Rick Spisak: And are they always translated well? No, God no. Oh, no.

Alma Lewtom: It’s the most difficult to translate poetry, for sure. I’ve translated, before writing, I translated, I speak several languages, and poetry is always the most difficult to translate. And I feel that there are never perfect translations of poetry.

It’s impossible to translate poetry from one language to another.

Rick Spisak: Let me get you off the hook, right? Let me relieve you of that burden. Because let me tell you something.

In my opinion, any poem, the most straightforward, concrete poem can be interpreted a hundred ways. What line, what metaphor can’t be a hundred different things?

Alma Lewtom: But there’s always something lost in translation, you know? That’s the thing.

Rick Spisak: Of course. And when you strive to try to carry a poem across that barrier of language, what a noble task. What a noble task.

You are to be thanked for trying such juggling of bubbles, you know? Because to take the metaphors of one language, and even understand what all they might mean in that same language is one thing. But then to try to transfer that into another language. Oh my gosh.

That should be regarded with great honor. That you even try to.

Alma Lewtom: Thank you, thank you. I really love it. That moment when I can speak fluently another language, and I can actually create a bridge between cultures. It’s like, oh my goodness, I love it so, so much. It doesn’t compare to anything.

So, I think this is a great segue to the next question, which is related to your other books. If you could tell us a bit about why did you decide to write and publish them?

Rick Spisak: Well, let me start by saying when I was young, and I knew I had to be a writer. I knew I didn’t have a choice. I had to write. I did what I think many young people do who are thinking about writing. They say, well, are there how-to-write books? Are there how-to-be-a-successful-author books? Oh, God, there’s tons and tons of them.

And they all sort of boil down to the same suggestion. Number one, pick a popular topic. Pick a topic that people buy books. They buy books about crime. They buy books about sports. They buy books about fashion. They buy books about the macabre. They buy books about horrendous crimes.

And I thought, I don’t want to write any of that. I just don’t. And I thought, well, then what kind of writer are you? And I knew that I was the kind of writer who wanted to help you think and laugh. And if I could do that, if I could give you something to think about, maybe in a way you hadn’t thought about it before, and help you laugh about the silly humans and the brave humans and the caring humans and the careless humans and the silly humans. A laugh.

That’s my goal. If I get you to laugh, if I get you to smile, that’s worth $100,000 million zillion to me.

Alma Lewtom: Well, you’ve definitely succeeded in making me smile a lot tonight. So thank you so much. Thank you.

Rick Spisak: My honor, dear. My honor.

Alma Lewtom: Likewise.

Rick Spisak: Okay. So this last book. Knowing all that, I have from time to time, well, let’s put it this way, in my wild 20s, right? During when we’re all crazy a little bit when we’re in our 20s. I used to make, because I didn’t want literature to be up here. Literature to me is not about busts of great poets of the past.

My idea of poetry is sharing a thought, sharing a laugh, sharing an insight, describing some silly politician who’s just trying to lie their face off. So I used to make a virtue of writing my poetry on any scrap of paper around. I’d grab a shopping bag, I’d grab a pizza box, a wrapper from an ad or a sock or whatever.

After a while, I thought, you know, going through a box of random pieces of paper is a little silly. So I went to notebooks.

I literally have 30 years of notebooks. Okay. And with drawings and pictures and sketches and this and that and poetry.

Alma Lewtom: I have to come visit you!

Rick Spisak: So, at a certain point I said to myself, you know, Balzac, Victor Hugo, the great writers who I respect, they self-publish. They found a way of getting their work in print. And eventually they were picked up by a publisher and paid to do this.

And I thought, you know, I’m getting to be 50 years old. Maybe I should self-publish myself. Because every time I reach out, I had probably 20 different articles published and paid for.

But my first three, this is so hilarious. I was invited to submit an article to a scientific magazine. So I submitted it.

They said, “This is great. Oh, we love this. It’s witty. It’s fun. You explain things well, we’ll take it.” And I got paid. But you know what happened? The magazine went out of business before they printed my story. That happened three times in a row. They took my article. They loved my article. They paid me for the article. And then it went out of business. Three times.

So I thought, you know, I’ve got to find a more stable, serious publisher that will take my stuff. And there was a gentleman who had a literary magazine, an Eastern European writer who edited and published a magazine of literature. And I heard him on the radio. So I wrote him. And I said, you know, I think this idea of yours, this magazine, is very interesting. You’re a very intelligent fellow. I’d like to submit my writing. He said, “Yeah, sure, go ahead.”

So I did. I submitted several poems.

He writes me back. “These are very, they’re very intelligent, very well written. Your language use is great. Your metaphors are interesting. This is fantastic stuff.” And I said, trying to bait my hook a little more, I said, “Look, I just appeared at a really big literary festival called the Book Fair, Minor Book Fair. And I said, if you’re interested, I can put you in touch with these people. They had me perform poetry. I’m sure they’d love to have you.”

He said, “Oh, that’s great.” So he got in touch with me. They accepted him and they invited him down. He said, “Listen, when I come to Miami, we’ll meet.”

I said, “OK, great.” So when we meet, I am so, I feel so honored that this very intelligent, erudite publisher, philosopher is going to meet with me and talk about my stuff. And he’s already said he likes it.

So we sit down for coffee and I said, “So, you know, I sent you five pieces. You said they’re funny, they’re intelligent. Which one are you going to take?”

He said, “Well, Richard, let me explain something to you. I don’t know if you know this, but most publishers, they just really want to be famous. We really, we really want to be famous. And I go, OK, thanks for the information. I’m glad to know.”

He said, “But see, let me explain this. He said, there’s an actress who’s the daughter of [a famous writer]. Maybe you heard of her.”

I said, “Of course.” He said, “I’m going to publish four of her stories.” I said, “OK, she must be a good writer.” He said, “She can’t write her way out of a paper bag.” I said, “OK, there’s something I don’t get.”

He said, “It’s because she’s famous. So when you’re famous, you let me know and I’ll publish your stuff.” And I said, “Well, that’s interesting. I said, you know, in your whole magazine, there’s no room for like one of my pieces.”

And he goes, “Oh, they’re really good. Keep writing. These are great.” And I go, “But there’s no room for even one.” He goes, “No, no, look, when you get famous, man, you let me know.”
And that was the last time I took publishing seriously.

Alma Lewtom: I get what you mean. That’s also why I created my website, so that I can publish whatever I want.

Rick Spisak: Yeah, well, let me tell you this. This is another funny story. Back in the 70s and 80s in Miami, there were poetry contests, poetry competitions.

And in the art district of Miami, it’s called Coconut Grove, they would hold these gatherings and poets competed. Now, I personally think that’s repulsive. Compete? Look, you have your voice, you speak your truth. I have my voice. I speak my truth. Let’s listen.

Let’s not judge each other. What’s the point of that?

You know, maybe, okay, maybe you could say like the delivery was good because some people read like this and then other people read, you know, with some spirit. That I can get.

But poetry competition? Well, long story short, I ended up winning four in a row.

Alma Lewtom: Congrats!

Rick Spisak: Oh, I’m not impressed. But this guy walks up to me, he says, “Richard, listen, I really like your writing. It’s very funny, very witty. I’m a producer at the local radio station. Would you want to do a radio show?”

And I said, “Yeah, absolutely. What I’d like to do is a science fiction comedy called Martian Ambassador in the Caption Chorus. And it’ll be a sci-fi comedy.”

And I hadn’t thought of that. It just came out of my mouth. I was as surprised as he was because he thought he’s going to get a poet to do a poetry show.

But instead, I started talking about science fiction comedy. So he said, yes, okay. So I ended up writing a comedy show, a science fiction comedy show.

And from that, my politics were too progressive for the station manager. He didn’t like my politics. So one day I annoyed him enough that he fired me.

Yeah, no more, no more. I said, okay, no problem. I didn’t really mind because to me, you know, I wasn’t desperate to be famous. I wasn’t desperate to be a radio writer. I enjoyed writing. I enjoyed the fact that the radio helps me get my work out, but I didn’t really think too much of it.

Well, the funny thing was he hired a different comedy group to do their show in place of mine. These guys had been listeners to my show. They liked my show.In fact, they thought I was very funny.

So, the first time they came to the studio to do their show, they hired me to come and write for their show. So when the station manager is welcoming them into the studio and he sees me, he says “What are you doing here? You’re fired. You’re out of here.” I said, “No, they hired me. I’m going to write for them.”

Alma Lewtom: Oh, wow. I’m sure you have so many stories you could share with me. I’m sure. Stories, stories, stories.

Well, I’m curious about your creative process. As I know, it’s deeply personal and it’s unique to every artist. How would you describe your creative process?

Rick Spisak: I have two approaches. Sometimes I use one, sometimes I use the other.

The first one, and the most important one, is inspiration. I’ll hear a line, I’ll hear a phrase, or maybe sometimes coming from my head, and I’ll think, oh, that’s an interesting idea. For example, one morning I awoke and I heard the phrase in my head: avuncular aphid.

Now, you know, aphids are little creatures that, you know, climb around on plants, right, and suck life out of plants. I knew that avuncular meant kind of friendly and kind of helpful and kind of parenting, but I didn’t know exactly what it meant. But I thought, avuncular aphids, yeah, yeah, I like that, yeah.

So I started researching aphids because the next thing I typically do, if I’m going to write about something that struck me interesting, I do my research. So I researched about aphids, I learned about life cycles. It turns out there’s no male aphids. All aphids are hermaphroditic. They have, they’re both sexes all at once. So there’s an avuncular, it turns out, means like an uncle. So there are no uncle aphids. That’s impossible. But I already had the idea, so I’m going to, so I wrote about avuncular aphids.

Alma Lewtom: I see. I also hear them sometimes. I feel like they’re coming to me, but if I don’t write them right away, I lose them. If I don’t write it right away, like when a poem comes to me, I really need to get the pen and paper and write it then and there, because otherwise I’m going to be like, what was that poem? I don’t have it anymore. Please come back to me. Where did you go? I don’t know if you have the same feeling.

Rick Spisak: Pad by the bedside. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And then the other one is, I’ll hear about an issue. And even though it didn’t come to me from inspiration, it’s an issue that I want to write about, I need to write about.

For example, there was this, a mayor in New Jersey, in the North-East part of the United States, was arrested because he wanted to investigate if prisoners were being mistreated.

The Trump administration is so racist, that they want to get rid of all Hispanics. They want to get rid of all immigrants. It’s terrible. It’s absolutely terrible.

And this mayor wanted to investigate, was this prison a bad thing? And how, you know, could he, by investigating it, find out that he could either close it or stop it or make things better? So I thought that’s horrible and I need to write about it. Do you want to hear another poem?

Alma Lewtom: Yes, please.

Rick Spisak: Okay. So I wrote this. And, of course, the police claimed that the mayor attacked them. Now, you know, I don’t know what politicians around the world are like, but I suspect that most political people are not going to attack the police. That’s just absurd. So I wrote this. It’s called:

The mayor storms-not-storms the prison (5)
@rwspisak

It really wasn’t in him
They said he stormed the prison

He’d come to see it several times
Invited congressional leaders on his dime
Asked for a tour to check ?
exactly what kind of justice did he expect?
The kind that brown and black folk usually get
When they bump right smack into some security net.

And this is a private prison contractor,
I can tell you for sure that was a definite factor.
He waited at the gate for permission to tour,
he was told for a certainty, they wouldn’t demur.
If he’d submit to a search, it might take a minute,
as if he was in some kinda church, but he couldn’t get in it.

He was the BLACK MAYOR, of Newark, New Jersey,
of this they were clear, he wore a suit not quite a clergy?
Ras Baraka, lets call him by name, came to investigate Delany Hall,
he brought several Congress persons and that wasn’t all.
It was once used to to confine DRUG ABUSE, there they kept a group of patients
for healing had been the plan, but that was decades ago, in the darkness of history.
The facility was filthy and what they were up to now, was a god damned mystery.
They never bothered to get a “C.O.” cause they really didn’t care, to let anyone know.
THIS PROFIT MAKING PRISON, the largest in new England
he brought several congressman, along as his wingmen.

He ignored several threats said the spokesperson from ICE,
he wasn’t compliant, complacent, subservient or even nice.
Alina Haba a former attorney of Trump, chimed in with her opinion,
of course on the Mayor, we knew she would dump.
Her opinion TRUMP Tailored. It had that kind of FLAVOR.

Habba said he’d trespassed, and that will not stand,
imagine having a press conference, right there on Federal Land?
As if as a citizen, was really his bidness, what happened
when the mercenary cops, got you in this. SO LETS AT HIM!

REPS, Watson, Menendez and MacGyver were not arrested,
Despite all the questions the folks incharge attested.
They claimed the facility was fully permitted, but they wouldn’t enlarge.
It just wasn’t in him.

That’s all they would say, they were fully committed,
the city said they weren’t and there it just “sitted”
His arrest was based on that, the thinnest of tissues.
The very essence of CIVIL LAW, a PERMIT at Issue.
The “Insurrection Act of 1807”
allows the military to perform a sort of law enforcement
as the president sees fit! Posse Comitatus, was fought over this,
the presi-dunce is grinning; he’s really in favor of this kind of chit.

They’ll countinence no inspections,
they prefer, doom, gloom and then perhaps resurrection.
And if stone-Walling won’t work,
they’ve a phalanx of well-feathered attorneys will fight it.
Wasting buckets of taxpayer monies by day and by Nigh-et?

To deny justice amongst us, courts a constitutional crisis,
in service to would be tyrants… one two three beside us.
On that you can place your reliance. It could happen to thee.
Well, I guess we’ll just have to see.

Alma Lewtom: Thank you. Thank you for sharing it, Rick. Thank you.

I also understand this more research part like of the creative process. I feel the same, mostly related to my articles or essays. When I want to write an essay, part of it is inspiration. Part of it is very research mode, you know, combination of insight…

Rick Spisak: You’re an intelligent person. God bless you for that.

Alma Lewtom: Thank you. God bless you, too. I’m really, really grateful that we’re talking right now. We’re almost getting to the end. I only have two more questions prepared for you.

The next one is related to your inner youngster. If you were to send a message to your inner youngster, the young man who did not know you would be where you are right now, having lived all these years, what would you tell him?

Rick Spisak: Go boldly.

Alma Lewtom: Yeah. I think I would tell my young version the same. Just do it!

Rick Spisak: You know, we tentatively find our way into our lives, you know, and I have been surprised more often than not when some idea I had bears such rich fruit. And the fact that I get to meet people like you, my dear, you make my life richer.

Alma Lewtom: Thank you. Thank you. Likewise, I really feel the same.

And, my last question is actually coming from America. So I’ve heard some of Tim Ferriss’s interviews and I find them very interesting. I feel he’s done amazing interviews with amazing people. And I’m really, really grateful that he just gives them to us, you know, and I’ve noticed that he likes to end many of his interviews with a question that I find really good. So I would like to quote it, with a lot of gratitude for his interviews. And this question is, “What would you put on a billboard to get a message out to millions of people?”

Rick Spisak: Look carefully and graciously at what surrounds you, because this is our gift from the world. You are a gift to the world.

Alma Lewtom: So beautiful. Thank you so much, Richard. I am so honored. Beyond words. I hope you can feel it. We’re quite far away, but I feel that tonight we were very close, despite the distance and the time zones. Oh, my goodness, the time zones.

Rick Spisak: Yeah, it must be pretty late over your way.

Alma Lewtom: Yeah, I’m wondering if the video recording actually gets the fact that the light is getting dimmer.

Rick Spisak: No, you’re still well lit. You’re still well lit.

Alma Lewtom: It’s soon getting dark. It was also quite rainy. Right now, I think the sun would be setting. I know it’s around noon for you.

Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for agreeing to do this interview. I feel like my my life is richer now that I’ve had this conversation with you, Richard.

Rick Spisak: Thank you. My honor.

Alma Lewtom: I think we’re both honored and I’m really looking forward to also creating the transcript and putting it on the blog. And I’m pretty sure that we will continue our conversation. We’re both artists and I’m pretty sure that for us, it doesn’t really stop here, even though for tonight…

Rick Spisak: I’m going to ask you to promise if you make it across, that you come to see me first? I can treat you with the grace and honor and respect that you deserve.

Alma Lewtom: Thank you. I would be honored. I had heard that they’re getting the visas out of the question, but apparently they’re back on. So I think it’s quite complicated.

Rick Spisak: This too shall pass. This too shall pass.

Alma Lewtom: But for sure, for sure, I would like to come to America at least once in this lifetime. And I’m really hoping to meet you.

Rick Spisak: If I have a roof, you have a roof.

Alma Lewtom: Thank you, Rick. It’s the same for if you want to come to Europe.

Rick Spisak: I hope to again. I hope to. For sure.

Alma Lewtom: And if not to Romania, it’s easier for me to come to another country. Thank goodness we’re still in the European Union, the Schengen thing. It’s a dream come true, Europe without borders. It’s really a dream come true.

So for sure, if you’re ever coming to Europe, let me know and I will do my best to come meet you, because I would really like to meet you in person.

Rick Spisak: Yes. And I will send you this video.

Alma Lewtom: Thank you. Thank you. We’ll be in touch. Thank you. Many blessings, Rick.

Rick Spisak: And you too, dear.

Alma Lewtom: Thank you so much again.